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Old 05-04-2008, 07:16 PM   #41
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Well, we have an answer albeit a non-answer to a large extent.

It is obvious from Mr. Bone's answer that Collingwood will not get a look at the Workplan and Cost Estimate, which as he pointed out should reasonably be in the public domain.

Regarding the possibility for a moderator to examine the documents Mr. Bone only states that "we may consider" this. Not quite the same as a offer for a moderator to examine the document(s).

No response to Callum regarding either the issue of costs, spamming or the conflict of interest.

Summing up thus far, we have got not one step further. I am sure this will not be the last we hear of this though.

Aye // Stephen
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Old 05-04-2008, 07:52 PM   #42
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We may consider allowing the forum moderator to view the documents via private email if we get a promise from him/her that they will not pass the document on or discuss the document in any specific details.
Hi Chris

I would prefer that this did not happen as it would place CL (and moderators) in the middle of all this and unable to pass comment supported by any documentation. We cannot pass "judgement" on any such documentation anyway so would be a waste of time and energy. If you wish to pass this information to any member it is of course your prerogative. Kindly do not place the administrators of this forum in a difficult position.

Thank you.
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Old 05-04-2008, 08:40 PM   #43
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Ah, a signal has been received from the antipides to inform us that we are not to be further informed or enlightened, if indeed we ever have been. My request to see a Workplan and Cost Estimate, documents which any reasonable charitable organisation should make available for public scrutiny, has been denied although, a moderator may get a look at them.

I can distinctly smell a rat here.

Firstly, I do not accept Mr. Bone's reasoning for not making such document, should it exist, available. If I so wished I could easily establish the name of Mr. Bone's contact on Vanuatu through my contacts there. When all is said and done we are not talking about a huge population are we? I suspect a bluff! Believe me Mr. Bone, if I wanted to cast doubts about your integrity there I could do so but I suspect that your own actions are sufficient to awaken a healthy scepticism.

Secondly, by offering to possibly permit a moderator to view the documents Mr. Bone is using some cleaver but basic psychology. By making this "possible" offer he will have us believe these documents actually exist.

When I, with all respect, asked to view the Workplan and Cost Estimate I had no ulterior motive but believed that to be one fair way in which OceanWatch could establish their bona fides. and ensure that the directors were acting in good faith. They have chosen not to do so and implied that I am looking for a way to find fault with them. I was not and will not comment further upon the matter save to say let the people judge.

It is also apparent that Mr. Bone, whilst denying my request, has not had the courtesy to answer the points raised concerning the amount to be paid to participate in the voyage nor has he given any form of defense regarding the claim of spamming.

Unless some new facts are unearthed or Mr. Bone sees fit to acquiesce to my request to look at the Workplan and Cost Estimate, I intend to withdraw from this debate as the responses from OceanWatch are predictably and consistently unsatisfactory. I believe that OceanWatch has been deliberately obscure and lacks sufficient transparency and public relations skills; all of which are prerequisites for a successful charitable organisation.

Pandora's box may have contained all the evils of mankind although at the bottom there was hope but I suspect that even that will be denied the islanders when, as I expect, the organisation will fail. When this happens I will feel no empathy for Mr. Bone et al but for the islanders who will have invested their faith and trust the organisation.

James Lidstone-Collingwood
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Old 05-04-2008, 11:04 PM   #44
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The charter requirements for not-for-profit and charitable organisations require a degree of openness and transparency which Oceanwatch appears reluctant to meet away from New Zealand's shores. Operating on an international front, one would expect the organisation to freely display its plans and schedules.

David.
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Old 05-05-2008, 06:46 AM   #45
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Callum, how dare you call me a "spamming team". Ofcourse I am a new member, you asked for another view from someone who knew about Oceanswatch, I joined this forum to give you that, not at Chris' call.

As far as membership of $25 goes, how little it is, what about web hosting, postage, printing, stickers etc etc, I am a member of several cruising associations, all more than $25 a year. I believe Oceanswatch is cheap at $25 if you don't then don't join, that choice is yours.
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Old 05-05-2008, 09:00 AM   #46
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Callum, how dare you call me a "spamming team". Ofcourse I am a new member, you asked for another view from someone who knew about Oceanswatch, I joined this forum to give you that, not at Chris' call.

As far as membership of $25 goes, how little it is, what about web hosting, postage, printing, stickers etc etc, I am a member of several cruising associations, all more than $25 a year. I believe Oceanswatch is cheap at $25 if you don't then don't join, that choice is yours.
Please read http://hanschristian.org/bb/viewtopic.php?...83f3dcbd8#18900 and do a bit of googling to see the extent of the spamming on forums, guestbooks, etc. Hundreds of posts - most with links to Mr Bone's yacht delivery business - it has been relentless. Mr Bone SHOULD be donating income and time to Oceanswatch, afterall, he is riding on their back in not having forum posts deleted as spam. Come on - smell the coffee.

I have no interest at all as to how much the membership fees are for various cruising associations but I have raised an interest in what happens to the $25 membership (donation) that Oceanswatch is asking for. Unfortunately, the explanation is not forthcoming and replies to my DIRECT questions have been ducked or extremely vague. You say that the choice is mine whether to join or not? Definitely not, as $25 is too much to just hand over to an org that cannot (or will not) answer a couple of very valid questions about themselves. Getting a couple of references from their own "crew" is tacky to say the least.

I have never come across this type of attitude from a charitable org in my life before. I would rather feed my $25 to the fish.

I will now withdraw from this discussion as my mind is made up. Others can make their own deductions.

No, thank you.
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Old 05-05-2008, 10:01 AM   #47
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I am not sure if we will progress any further with this discussion.

As I see it;

Callum has not received any satisfactory reply to his question regarding expences and his claim regarding spamming, which an Internet search certainly seems to justify, provoked only an indignant reaction but no real answer either.

Collingwood has received no Workplan and Cost Estimate (unless this has been sent to him privately), and so OceanWatch again have failed to provide information.

So much for Mr. Bone's claim to be "happy to answer questions".

I have tried to remain neutral but at this stage I have to say that the balance is not in favour of OceanWatch. In conclusion, although not judging OceanWatch to be a method of funding pleasant lifestyles for Mr. bone and his associates, I would seriously recommend anyone interested in contributing to this organisation to assertain to their satisfaction that the money, goods or services donated will end up in the right place doing the right job for the right people.

Aye // Stephen
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Old 05-05-2008, 02:18 PM   #48
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I would seriously recommend anyone interested in contributing to this organisation to assertain to their satisfaction that the money, goods or services donated will end up in the right place doing the right job for the right people.[/b]

Aye // Stephen
Oceanswatch has not yet taken public money for their work, as such, the reality is that they probably have not yet really sat themselves down and worked out a rigorous budget and plan. This, IMHO doesn't reflect on their ethical bent, its just simply the state they may be in right now. Having little in the way of outside funding right now, its likely that they have no real budget and are flying by the seat of their pants. This doesn't mean they're doing anything unethical, it just means that some of the people on this board who are cautious should spend their charitable donations and time elsewhere with one of the numerous organizations with staff and experience in documenting budgets and plans. Sure, too many of those groups spend 50% (or more) of every dollar on overhead--but hey, you know exactly where, other than the stated mission, your dollars are being spent!

In a few years, it will all likely come out in the wash--either Oceanswatch will bootstrap their way to having enough money to hire an admin person to do the documenting to make broader audiences happy OR they'll just keep on doing what they're doing but their track record will be known-good or bad.

This cruiser log is a generally supportive group, but we do seem to get down in the weeds beating up on folks about certain types of things. In particular, there are members of the group who just jump onto and slam anyone who just might, maybe, even by a LONG SHOT, have something going on that might IMPLY the POSSIBILITY of reimbursement from the act of cruising. Once the scent of such a thing is in the air, the fangs come out. I would suggest to folks who are so inclined to be upset about such things to take a deep breath. It is my impression that one of the things cruisers pride themselves on is an independent "live and let live" attitude. As such, attacking doesn't fit into the creed. Live and let live.

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Old 05-05-2008, 03:03 PM   #49
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This cruiser log is a generally supportive group, but we do seem to get down in the weeds beating up on folks about certain types of things. In particular, there are members of the group who just jump onto and slam anyone who just might, maybe, even by a LONG SHOT, have something going on that might IMPLY the POSSIBILITY of reimbursement from the act of cruising. Once the scent of such a thing is in the air, the fangs come out. I would suggest to folks who are so inclined to be upset about such things to take a deep breath. It is my impression that one of the things cruisers pride themselves on is an independent "live and let live" attitude. As such, attacking doesn't fit into the creed. Live and let live.
Sage words indeed. I have watched this thread develop and, in my opinion, it has played itself out and will not go anywhere exept down from here. It is a topic that is of interest to us as cruisers and I am sure that everyone would by now have reached a point to make up their own minds of whether to support the group or not.

My vote is to close the thread now as there is no real constructive input from either side of the debate.
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Old 05-05-2008, 03:10 PM   #50
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I definately agree with the idea of closing the debate now. I think we are all capable of making our own minds up regarding the issue and the Forum should therefore lay this one to rest. Enough said.

Aye // Stephen
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Old 05-05-2008, 05:00 PM   #51
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I suppose if Ocean watch was flying by the seat of it's pants. They could have stated so, and asked for some understanding. I think it is the negative replies to the request for information.
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Old 05-05-2008, 06:50 PM   #52
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[QUOTE=name='redbopeep' date='May 6 2008, 02:18 AM' post='21209']

Oceanswatch has not yet taken public money for their work, as such, the reality is that they probably have not yet really sat themselves down and worked out a rigorous budget and plan. This, IMHO doesn't reflect on their ethical bent, its just simply the state they may be in right now. Having little in the way of outside funding right now, its likely that they have no real budget and are flying by the seat of their pants. This doesn't mean they're doing anything unethical,

Thanks for your level headed wise words. Our main issue is time and as you predict we are running on our own dwindling resources so do not have any paid staff for admin etc. We have been approved by 1% for the Planet who have looked at us and our accounts quite carefully so that can give interested parties a level of assurance.

Chris
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Old 05-05-2008, 06:57 PM   #53
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I definately agree with the idea of closing the debate now. I think we are all capable of making our own minds up regarding the issue and the Forum should therefore lay this one to rest. Enough said.

Aye // Stephen
Closing the debate would be fine by me. I do not have time for this and just want to get on with developing OceansWatch in a positive manner. .......

Edit by Mod: Spam paragraph removed.

Chris
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Old 05-05-2008, 07:03 PM   #54
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[QUOTE=name='Collingwood' date='May 5 2008, 08:40 AM' post='21169']

We have detailed plans for both our Tonga and Vanuatu/PNG trips. Both sets of plans are quite comprehensive but it is hard to make very concrete plans in these situations, we have to see how things pan out, where we can be most effective.
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Old 05-05-2008, 09:50 PM   #55
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We have been approved by 1% for the Planet who have looked at us and our accounts quite carefully so that can give interested parties a level of assurance.
I note the above from Mr. Bone but, to put it into context and without jumping to conclusions, wish to point out that 1% for the Planet on their website state, "Our only pre-requisites (for approval) are that you are a 501(3) or international equivalent organization and that you are environmentally focused.

Not a word about screening accounts.

Aye // Stephen
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Old 05-06-2008, 07:37 AM   #56
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Redbopeep, i would like to thankyou for your level headedness and considered opinion, if we ever share an anchorage you are most welcome for sundowners.
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Old 05-06-2008, 09:39 AM   #57
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I note the above from Mr. Bone but, to put it into context and without jumping to conclusions, wish to point out that 1% for the Planet on their website state, "Our only pre-requisites (for approval) are that you are a 501(3) or international equivalent organization and that you are environmentally focused.

Not a word about screening accounts.

Aye // Stephen
When you actually apply they ask for accounts.
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Old 05-06-2008, 09:16 PM   #58
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We have detailed plans for both our Tonga and Vanuatu/PNG trips. Both sets of plans are quite comprehensive but it is hard to make very concrete plans in these situations, we have to see how things pan out, where we can be most effective.
In my previous post I indicated that I was about to drop out of this debate unless Mr. Bone had some new facts to present. I honestly do not think anything worth commenting upon has surfaced since I made that statement however, as Mr. Bone addressed the above comment directly to me, I have decided to offer a reply.

I am much pleased to read of your plans regarding Tonga and Vanuatu/PNG. Can we believe this yet again unseen?

You state that both plans are "quite comprehensive" and then almost contradict yourself by claiming that "it is hard to make concrete plans in these situations". What situations are you referring to?

As far as making plans is concerned you are very wrong. Even in the most fluid situations strategic plans can be made supported by tactical interventions. As differing situations develop the tactical interventions may need to be revised in order to achieve the strategic goals. You should have the strategic goals firmly anchored, the tactical interventions should be planned and benchmarks established for monitoring and evaluating your own successes and, possibly, failures. If you do not plan these interventions then you cannot adequately and effectively budget for them. When using other people's money you should not be flying by the seat of your pants.

So, my basic question remains largely unanswered and wholly unproven. When do we get to see your Workplan and Cost Estimate?

James Lidstone-Collingwood
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Old 05-08-2008, 03:39 AM   #59
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We have been approved by 1% for the Planet who have looked at us and our accounts quite carefully so that can give interested parties a level of assurance.
To try and clear up this issue I emailed 1% for the Planet three days ago. Here follows the text of the email.

Quote:
I feel it incumbent to advise you of a debate which is currently taking place at http://www.cruiserlog.com/forums/index.php...amp;#entry21238 which is a forum for cruising yachtsmen. As part of the debate a Mr. Chris Bone from OceanWatch has indicated that, "We have been approved by 1% for the Planet who have looked at us and our accounts quite carefully so that can give interested parties a level of assurance."

As far as I can see from your website approval is given without any examination of financial documents.

As a forum moderator I will greatly appreciate your comments on this. Can you, as Mr. Bone claims, assure us that you have examined the accounts of OceanWatch and give us such a level of assurance, which I take to mean guarantee their correctness?
I have received a reply acknowledging the receipt of my message but, three days later, no comment about the issue itself.

I hope to receive a concrete reply soon and, hopefully, this will be in favour of OceansWatch, thus wrapping this part of the debate up.

Aye // Stephen
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Old 05-09-2008, 02:54 AM   #60
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I guess I opened a real can of worms here. I have been too busy attending a friend's wedding and catching up on old times with friends and just looked in today to see what's new. And there are three pages of comments on Oceanswatch.

I didn't think of asking for a plan or anything like that, so thanks, Collingwood. Not that it got us anywher.e

I have my brother's stories and expereinces to use as a guide in this debate. It seems to me that it woujld be pretty easy to get a plan together and start asking for cruisers to contribute something more substantial.

Too much of the we are going to, we are still assessing, we aren't sure ;yet what we are going to do. Not enough concrete facts. But Redbopeep has a point, they're new and probably inexperienced at this. But I think I'll wait a bit before committing my time or mhy money to this operation.

I would like it to be legit and provide a positive contribution to the island nations of the South Pacific. I'm not convinced yet that it is.

This topic and the organization are now a dead issue for me.
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