Whales And Cruisers

[MMNETSEA]

The narrow but successful vote in the meeting of the International Whaling Commission to continue the ban of the hunting and slaughter of Whales, now has Japan considering walking away from the International Whaling Commission and setting up a rival organization.

Japan had offered in return to consider reviewing its plan to include humpback whales, a priority issue for New Zealand and Australia, in its Antarctic hunting programme which it conducts in the name of scientific research.

Mr Morishita suggested that after Australia's and New Zealand's refusal to talk about a compromise, the humpback hunt would go ahead, though possibly with some unspecified revisions.

------------------------------------------0------------------------------------------------------------

We as cruisers of the oceans where we share the waters with whales and dolphins can add our voices and hit the keys in making sure that cetaceans have no place on a plate in some

restaurant .

What do you think ? what can you do ?

[Nausikaa]

Difficult one this - and very emotive.

In principle, I have nothing against hunting whales. It is no different to hunting elk/moose or kudu or any other form of game. The problem with any form of inflictad mortality (hunting or fishing) is the establishment of correct quotas which will result in sustainablility. We don't have a good record there. Fish and whale stocks and communities are finite and biological production constrains the potential yield form a fishery. Historically, we have been guilty of gross over-fishing and whaling.

So, whilst not having anything in priciple against whaling I have strong reservations about re-opening the whaling industry.

What I do feel even more strongly about though is the fact that there exists a consultative organisation of which Japan and all other ex-whaling countries are members. The IWC reflects the global opinion on the subject and all countries, including Japan, should follow world opinion. Maybe there are a few of you who when reading this will nod your heads in agreement with that statement....but wait a while. In other issues the boot is on the other foot. Regarding global warming world opinion says we must follow the Kyoto Agreement.....but Australia and USA have backed out there.

Politics is a dirty business and maybe the most effective way we ordinary people have of showing our displeasure is by boycotting goods from countries who do not do what we believe to be correct. Now I am boycotting Japanese products - no great hardship as I always have preferred scotch whisky to Suntory whisky.

Aye

Stephen

yacht NAUSIKAA

[JeanneP]

Here's a link to what I wrote in 1994. I sent the letter to TIME Magazine in Australia, and it was printed the their Letters to the Editor in a slightly different form. I'm a bit cheeky.

Whale Lovers Unite!

http://www.cruiser.co.za/hostmelon33.asp

[Auzzee]

My only opposition to whaling largely mirrors Stephen's view. As long as the many species are in no danger of extinction and can be seen to be increasing in numbers, I have no specific opposition.

If one condemns the killing of one species of animal for food, it can be seen as hypocritical to support the killing of any other animal for the same reasons. I believe any policy of 'open slather' to be irresponsible and expect those nations which continue to hunt whales will carefully consider any change to their policies, under the very strong light cast by international opinion.

On the question of the Kyoto agreement, public opinion in Australia during what is an election year, has had an impact on the government which is now committed to a carbon trading scheme as defined by the Kyoto agreement. For the moment, mandatory caps and time frames are still fluid, but in a country whose population is overwhelmingly supportive of any initiative which can genuinely make a positive impact upon global warming, I feel sure that within a short period of time real restrictions will be imposed.

One can only hope

David

PS.When I was last in Japan (April) the whole issue of whaling was occupying a large slice of the press and airwaves. It is obvious that the majority of Japanese people are opposed to whaling. However, tempering the collective opinion is the people's obedience to the government. Only a select, very few, very expensive traditional restaurants are licensed to have whale meat on their menu. I was told that these restaurants are largely supported by older people and not by the younger more environmentally aware.

[Nausikaa]

I got a good chuckle from Jeanne's letter....right on the mark but maybe a tad cheeky.

I found it interesting that Jeanne took up the issue of blue fin tuna. Now that is one of my pet gripes. I will not go way off topic here but will start a new one soon enough about this. Suffice to say for now that if there is anyone out there who likes blue fin and has the money to pay for it without mortgaging the boat GO GET SOME AT ONCE! Believe me, at current mortality rates blue fin will be extinct before you know it.

Pleased to read that public opinion is likely to swing things in Oz.... good on you guys. Let's just hope it goes the same way in the 'Good Ole US of A'.

Now, where did I put that bottle of whisky (scotch, not suntory)?

Aye

Stephen

yacht NAUSIKAA

[longdistance]

The need to preserve Whales for future generations as opposed to slaughtering other mammals for food, is based on the fact that whales have a very long reproductive cycle - and when this is coupled with the their dwindling food sources - extinction could come about in the blink of an eye - the eye, the one that is centred in geological time.

If your need is red meat - it is easy to breed for taste and texture - carry on . BUT, leave the Whales alone !

Longdistance

[Nausikaa]

Longdistance....

I understand that your sentiments are good and no one wishes to preserve the whales more than I do but you are a little bit thin on the ground concerning facts. You are however right about the reproductive cycle but that does not in itself mean that whaling has to stop. What it does mean is that we have to be very much more alert to this fact when setting quotas otherwise whaling will not be sustainable.

It is interesting that you mention the long reproductive life cycle as that is one of the arguments against the fishing of patagonian toothfish, orange roughy, black gunnard and a host of other fishes which many have never heard of but happily eat.

As far as dwindling food resources are concerned then that is a truth with a lot of modification. Many whales feed on krill, which was once fished by the soviet state but is no longe. There is no shortage of krill at all.

I am the first to admit that whaling got out of control....as did so many things such as fishing, sealing, big game hunting etc. But my point is that there can be no objections to SUSTAINABLE whaling other than emotive objections.

As far as red meat is concerned then whaling is not a good idea. Whale meat is white

Aye

Stephen

Yacht NAUSIKAA

[longdistance]

But my point is that there can be no objections to SUSTAINABLE whaling other than emotive objections.

As far as red meat is concerned then whaling is not a good idea. Whale meat is white

Aye

Stephen

Yacht NAUSIKAA

[/quote]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~

From the Viking logo - your thirst for killing is understood !

How do you known what my objections are based on ? Is it wrong to object on the basis of extinction ?

The Americans slaughtered millions of Bison until they they got down to the last 600 ? Until then they also believed in sustainability

When did you last eat whale meat ? My grandmother told me it was red - maybe you were eating chicken of the sea.

[Nausikaa]

Originally Posted by longdistance

From the Viking logo - your thirst for killing is understood !

How do you known what my objections are based on ? Is it wrong to object on the basis of extinction ?

The Americans slaughtered millions of Bison until they they got down to the last 600 ? Until then they also believed in sustainability

When did you last eat whale meat ? My grandmother told me it was red - maybe you were eating chicken of the sea.

Longdistance....

You are way out....not only out of line but way off in your assesment of me.

* I have never eaten whale meat. Ever! I have however seen it.

* The American slaughter of bison was a totally uncontrolled masacre, which I have never endorsed. Neither do I advocate whaling. What I have said is that a stainable whaling based upon scientific evidence is moraly no worse than the killing of other species

* I have no thirst for killing

* I have for the past twenty plus years been working for a SUSTAINABLE use of all maritime resources and the protection of the marine environment

* If you are interested in protecting maritime species, look more into coastal zone management than just isolating a few species. It is a much more holistic approach.

* Regarding my knowlege of the basis for your objections, well I can only go on the points you have mentioned, i.e. " is based on the fact that whales have a very long reproductive cycle - and when this is coupled with the their dwindling food sources".

* Objection on the "basis of extinction" is not wrong.........it is just way too late. This is why we need to have good management systems in place irrespective if there is to be any whaling or not as even without whaling we need to ensure the species is protected from other forms of mortality brought on by humans

* 'My' viking symbol has nothing to do with whaling! I come from a small island in the Baltic - a sea which never has had any large whales and where the small whale (porpoise) population has never been hunted. I chose the viking symbol partially because of my heritage but mostly because of their great boat-building and sailing abilities.

* There are those who would argue that all resources should be utilised to their maximum sustainable yield in order to provide much needed protein. Not doing this, arguably, can be construed as poor management.

* I will gladly continue the dabate if you wish but I neither expect nor accept insulting remarks. That is NOT what this friendly forum is about. I fully expect you to withdraw your comment regarding my "thirst for killing". An appology may not be out of place either.

Understand well, I am not an advocate of whaling. However, I fail to see the moral difference between hunting whales and hunting kudu, springbok or any other form of game.

Aye,

Stephen

Yacht NAUSIKAA

[Yidaki]

I am one of the 'lurkers'. I have been visiting this site for a long time and am impressed by the friendly, community feel. I feel Longdistance has introduced a sad element to this debate by issuing a personal accusation to Nausikaa. I think there is merit in both arguments, but no merit whatever in personal attacks.

For the record, I am not opposed to the sustainable use of any resource. I would rather not see whales being hunted, but I understand the cultural background of those who disagree with me.

Yidaki.

[longdistance]

"'My' viking symbol has nothing to do with whaling! "

The same grandmother that told me about red whale meat, also told me about Vikings !

In fact to this day children in Eastern England are still warned about Vikings - I used to go to bed without turning off the light. The political and cultural grouping known as the 'Anglo-Danes' was born out of the trauma of some of the earliest Viking attacks on England.

In 865 a Viking army (known to the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle as The Great Army) led by Ivarr the Boneless landed in East Anglia. For 11 years (with fresh reinforcements from Scandinavia each summer) it ranged at will across the whole of England, and when the Vikings had taken enough food, silver and slaves from the English, they took all that remained - the land. Across a large area of the East Midlands and East Anglia they moved in and built new farms, settlements, villages and towns. Their families came over from Scandinavia, and a whole new region came into being, the Danelaw.

For 30-odd years they were left to run their own affairs. They had different laws, customs and owed military service in a different manner to the rest of England and in the early days these differences were a source of strength for the settlers. As equal members of a conquering army the land they held was theirs by right of conquest, and any threat to one former member of the army was a threat to all. Until 900 the old 'raiding' spirit could not be extinguished.

Of course I apologise for hurting your feelings. The Viking Helmet is symbolic of another era .

Lets call it quits - continue the debate - I still believe believe it would not take much to drive

certain Cetaceans into extinction despite management , reason :- people will not follow the rules while there is money to be made .

[Nausikaa]

Originally Posted by longdistance

The same grandmother that told me about red whale meat, also told me about Vikings !

In fact to this day children in Eastern England are still warned about Vikings - I used to go to bed without turning off the light.

Of course I apologise for hurting your feelings.

The Viking Helmet is symbolic of another era .

Lets call it quits - continue the debate - I still believe believe it would not take much to drive

certain Cetaceans into extinction despite management , reason :- people will not follow the rules while there is money to be made .

Come on.......get real. None of us alive today is to be blamed for the atrocities of the past.......and Britain too, for that matter, has caused more than its fair share.

Do not worry about my feelings. You certainly did not hurt them but I consider your remarks offensive.

But, as you say, back to the debate.

Indeed you are right: it would not take much to drive many maritime species into extinction and that is exactly why we need management policies. Management and utilisation are not synonymous. A management decision could be to implement a monatorium and suspend all fishing / hunting mortality.

We need management based upon the precautionary approach until such time as we are sufficiently knowledgeable to make the correct decisions and have the resources to implement and enforce the management strategies.

For these reasons, I am opposed to whaling until such time as we can ensure a sustainable use of the resourse but I am not opposed to it on priciple. You will find, if you look further back through the postings here, that I expressed this opinion very early in the debate. I also mentioned that I am against any country be it Japan, Norway or any other going against the wishes of the majority of the world in this respect. I am a great believer in democratic ideals and even if I can find nothing in principle wrong in whaling as such I can find great fault in countries going against the wishes of the great majority of the international community.

Aye

Stephen

Yacht NAUSIKAA

[triton]

Just a thought for everyone. The killing of whales spiraled with the industrial revelution. Sadly with the advent of quicker ships and faster means of killing them we took many species to the brink. These are obviously inteligent animals and deserve our respect. We don't need any of the products that these animals were killed for, we have alternatives. For once lets just accept that not everything on this planet was put here for us to use as we wish.

[jerjacko]

I am opposed to the hunting or exploitation of any endangered species.

I can understand the exceptions for traditional hunting of whales or salmon, perhaps, but even they should be charged with preserving our earth's diversity and stop using tradition as an excuse to hunt whales, for example. I don't see many people following their traditions that carefully anymore. Laplanders and Eskimos alike use skimobiles and power boats. If they feel that whale hunting is part of their cultural traditions I would think that they would hunt them as was done hundreds of years ago, not with the tools of modern civilization. I don't think that is furthering their cultural traditions.

The Caribbean island of Bequia is permitted to hunt whales. I met a young islander once who was selling scrimshaw made from the whale teeth and asked him if he liked whale meat. His answer to me was that "I don't like the way the meat makes me smell." Has anyone any experience with this?

I also met an Australian couple who spent many years in Japan, and told me about a lot of the unusual delicacies they were offered by their Japanese hosts, some of which they said they had a hard time eating without insulting their hosts. I asked if the Japanese really liked some of these foods, and their reply was that "it's expensive" and therefore served in order to honor or impress their guests. Is that a good reason for killing something? Because it impresses somebody that you can afford to serve it?

We don't need whale meat to feed ourselves, and with the exception of Bequia the nations who want to continue hunting whales are among the most affluent countries around. So they don't want the whale meat for survival, or even comfort. I don't think I can support this attitude.

[Nausikaa]

I don't disagree with either triton or jerjacko. The hunting of whales is unnecessary today. However, I still fail to seee why we can justify the sustainable killing of one mamal but not another.

I fully understand the arguement against all killing and the promotion of a vegetarian lifestyle. What I cannot understand is the purely emotive process of selecting a few species for total protection whilst we continue to hunt others. I am just trying to undestand the logic here.

Aye

Stephen

Yacht NAUSIKAA

[Collingwood]

Originally Posted by longdistance

The same grandmother that told me about red whale meat, also told me about Vikings !

In fact to this day children in Eastern England are still warned about Vikings - I used to go to bed without turning off the light. The political and cultural grouping known as the 'Anglo-Danes' was born out of the trauma of some of the earliest Viking attacks on England.

In 865 a Viking army etc. etc.

What has this to do with killing whales? It sounds as if Longdistance has a big chip on his shoulders about an event which took place 1250 years ago! I grew up within spitting distance of Lindisfarne, which probably saw more viking raids than any other part of the country. This has not left me, or any normal people I know, with such a prejudiced attitude. Neither do I know of any children who have been warned about vikings. I would say it is farbetter to warn them about present day issues such as drunken driving, pedofiles, drugs etc.

I believe that the harbouring of long-term prejudices (and Longdistance's is REALLY long-term) is counter productive and will only lead to increasing the number of problems in this world. We have enough of these without compounding them further with an anti-viking lobby.

My views about whales is that all killing should be stopped, but Nausikaa has a point. How do we justify the killing of one animal but not another?

James Collingwood

This thread has been moved here from the "Sailing/Cruising" board. It has gravitated away from the actual topic of discussion and as such is better to continue the debate on this "General" board.

Can I appeal to all contributors to this thread from here on to maintain a non-confrontational attitude in discussing and debating this very contentious and emotive issue. Cruiser Log is proud of it's reputation as a "friendly" community so let's attempt to continue this topic without attacks on individual personalities or being seriously emotional.



This is a very interesting topic so please continue the debate.

Thank you all for your assistance.

Admin

[Kaptain von Klepper]

Gosh, where have I been? For the last 40 years the whole topic of whaling, in any positive light, has generally been taboo in my family. When I was eight I received a toy whaling ship as a birthday gift, complete with whales on deck being "processed". Dad let me keep the ship, but pried the whales off the deck. I think if he had had time he would have substituted containers in their place.

The only possible exception to the ban on whaling in my family would have been for aboriginal tribes such as the Aleuts, etc. Have whale numbers finally come up enough where we can consider nudging on a ban?

Recently in the Sandwich Isles I saw a great number of humpbacks, porpoises, etc, but not nearly enough for my liking. More recently I was able to enjoy watching "K pod" while coming through Lopez Pass in the San Juans but still didn't see as many as I would have liked to have seen, -not that they're being hunted .

When I first saw this topic I had some visions of cruisers shooting at whales for pleasure with rifles or hand guns. Glad to see this wasn't the case.

If whale populations have recovered sufficiently to allow some culling, I could possibly understand. Elk and deer were cited as an example of another species in this thread. Colorado at the turn of the last century had only one elk and no deer sighted during an entire year. The population had been so impacted by commercial hunting there simply weren't any left. Herds were brought in from Wyoming to resupply and a ban was put into effect for over 40 years. By contrast, There are so many elk and deer in some regions of Colorado now 107 years later that they can actually be considered a pest and are a major road hazard. Since Rocky Mtn. National Park can't be opened for hunting, professionals have been brought in. If there is any doubt of the need for this, check the condition of the animals and the land, -Animals starving and land overgrazed.

I just don't really see a similarity as so far I can't see how humpbacks could "overgraze" and I still don't see as many as I'd like to.

-Andreas

[Nausikaa]

Hi Andreas,

I am the one who mentioned elk, kudu etc.

The comparisson I made was not related to overgrazing, even if that is a problem in many places. What I did say was that I cannot understand is the purely emotive process of selecting a few species for total protection whilst we continue to hunt others. I fail to see the logic in hunting one mamal and than saying we should protect another just because it is a mamal.

I note that you are in Chile. Good on you! Must be the most beautiful place I have ever visited - and such friendly people.

Aye,

Stephen

Yacht NAUSIKAA