Go Back   Cruiser Log World Cruising & Sailing Forums > Cruising Forums > General Cruising Forum
Cruiser Wiki

Join Cruiser Log Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 08-06-2007, 12:38 AM   #1
Ensign
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1
Default

Daytrader, have started a new topic (as per post by the Admin at: http://www.cruiserlog.com/forums/index.php...st&p=11258)

Thks for your provided links the of oil bypass / air tab systems at (I'll be sure to take a further look at them.):

http://www.cruiserlog.com/forums/index.php...ost&p=11251

http://www.cruiserlog.com/forums/index.php...ost&p=11252

http://www.cruiserlog.com/forums/index.php...ost&p=11253
__________________

__________________
Banned Forever is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2007, 06:49 AM   #2
Admiral
 
Auzzee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Home Port: Darwin
Vessel Name: Sandettie
Posts: 1,726
Default

The cost of fuel is probably of more concern to those with power boats or those sailors who, probably because of electricity requirements, keep the diesel running when they are sailing. My best effort was 4000klms around the east and north coast of Oz during which time I used 30 litres of fuel.

Mostly the engine was run once per day to keep the freezer at -17c, the batteries topped up, and to heat water for a shower through heat exchange.

David.
__________________

__________________
"if at first you don't succeed....Redefine success"!


Auzzee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2007, 06:28 AM   #3
Lieutenant
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 88
Default

This is the system I had installed.

550 each one for each engine.

http://oilpursys.com/

I like the ability to sample oil at the push of a button. Also in the boat set up the evaporator seems to make sense to me.

The filters are cheap at 14 bucks each. I run these with Shaffers 9000 synthetic blend oil. The engine shop intalled these bypass systems for 150 buckes each, but any person can very easily install these.

I see No reason at all for any marine tyoe engine to not have bypassfilter systems as they work.
__________________
daytrader is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2007, 09:04 AM   #4
Lieutenant
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 88
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Auzzee View Post
The cost of fuel is probably of more concern to those with power boats or those sailors who, probably because of electricity requirements, keep the diesel running when they are sailing. My best effort was 4000klms around the east and north coast of Oz during which time I used 30 litres of fuel.

Mostly the engine was run once per day to keep the freezer at -17c, the batteries topped up, and to heat water for a shower through heat exchange.

David.
So instead of doing a oil change at 50 hours you could do a oil change IF IT NEEDED IT at 500 hours.

Wouldn't that be worth the 700 bucks to have it installed? Now, oil sampling is being done at 25-50 hour intervals. How often do you sample your oil now? You seem like a very smart sailer. I am no sailer. You know this, but I have noticed. MOST do not ever sample their oil.

When I purchased my boat I asked for samples from both engines. The dealer never had an idea about this. Their words were we never knew there was such a thing. Who dose this.

I told them call any Cat dealer or engine dealer and they will do it. The yatch sales folks called me and told me that EVERY engine they sell know will have a sample taken. There were very happy with the simple reports. They can sample a engine now. Then sample it after 10 hours and have a idea what the engine is looking like.

For best care a monthly sample should be taken. That way you have a running data base on life cycle. What is 10 bucks a month for a 25k engine? Even if you only take 4 a year. You still have the data base to know when bearings and such are wearing.

The price is very cheap. The worth of knowing is worth it to me.

Kinda like replacing a altinator or starter BEFORE it needs it. Alts are very cheap to replace BEFORE they go out. Once they go out. You never know were you will be.

For 175 bucks each. But a new on every two years. Seems simple to me. Replace batts BEFORE they test to failer rate. I mean they are to me a life system. Maybe I am wrong. All I have to go by is my experiance in flying and trucking. I do not want to be broke down in either for a simple fix problem.

In North Carolia 2 weeks ago. A life vac unit (helocopter) landed and was unable to start again due to a failed charging stater. They had to shut down the interste for 6 hours and bring in second helo( no tow truck for helos). TWO people died. The wreck killed them, BUT to this day they may have lived if they could have gotten to the critical care unit. The FAA want's to know if that stater was changed on time.

In the aero field WE HAVE TO replace these simple failer items on a schedual. I do not see why a sailer would not due the same. OR do you sailer do this?

Many of you would seem to be fine as you can sail. I guess that is the differance? I do not know and that is why I ask.

Sail boating to me is blank. I know nothing about that. Like you said I am a power boater. NOT MUCH OF ONE YET. Still kinda lost.
__________________
daytrader is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2007, 10:19 AM   #5
Admiral
 
Nausikaa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,619
Default

Quote:
..............Wouldn't that be worth the 700 bucks to have it installed?

..............What is 10 bucks a month for a 25k engine?

..............In the aero field WE HAVE TO replace these simple failer items on a schedual. I do not see why a sailer would not due the same. OR do you sailer do this?

..............Many of you would seem to be fine as you can sail. I guess that is the differance?
Hi Daytrader,

Thanks for the interesting posts.

Looking at some of the issues you raised, please allow me to look at them from a "sailing" sailor's point of view.

..............Wouldn't that be worth the 700 bucks to have it installed? ..............What is 10 bucks a month for a 25k engine?

- Well, grouping these two together, that makes an annual cost of $ 285 assuming a 20 year life for the engine. Now, in my case, I change oil every spring. The engine does not run enough during the sailing season even to blacken the oil. I gues my annual oil bill, including filter, is somewhere in the region of $100 so, for me - and I stress that for me bit, it does not make sense. A power-boater could present quite a different set of figures.

..............In the aero field WE HAVE TO replace these simple failer items on a schedual. I do not see why a sailer would not due the same. OR do you sailer do this?

- I do. I am a professional seaman and as such am well aquainted with planned maintenance systems. Not only do they help alleviate failures but they are cost effective - not to mention the peace of mind they give. Unfortunately, some people are opperating on a shoe-string budget and tend to change only that which fails. This is not a good policy nor is it good seamanship.

..............Many of you would seem to be fine as you can sail. I guess that is the differance.

- You are right there. On passage I would not worry too much if my engine decided to go south. As you say, I would just sail - which is what I would have been doing anyway. On the other hand, if I have an engine (I do) in my boat then I want it to work. I would not want to be in the situation of sailing vessels before the introduction of steam where they had to remain in port, perhaps for days or even weeks, waiting for a fair wind in order to put to sea.

In professional maritime circles we have been sending oil samples for analysis for many years. Mobile was (and I think still is) a great company in this respect providing free analysis. There is a huge difference in changing five litres of oil in a small yacht engine and two drums in a larger (but still small) commercial vessel's engine. Larger ships are equipped with purifiers and seperators to maintain lubes in good condition.

As a result of Mobile's very helpfull attitude and the support I always received from them when at sea professionaly and the fact that they have very good quality lubricants, I always use Mobile lubes in NAUSIKAA. I am sure my loyalty to the company will not make it rich but it is the way we humans work. I am also sure that there are many other good companies supplying quality lubes.

Interesting topic though.

One quick question to an aero-indstry expert...and this is way off topic but please indulge me. I have always wondered how a pilot can simply just turn his turbines off after landing? On turbine ships we used to engage turning gear after berthing. This gear (an electric motor) turned the turbines at very slow speed so that the blades cooled down at an even rate. Without engaging turning gear the blades would warp. It took about two days for the blades to cool down. As an indicator, the last turbine ship I was on had H.P. turbines operating at 750 C and 550 p.s.i. The L.P. turbine was, of course, operating at lower temperatures but was larger. The other difference was that these were steam turbines and not gas turbines as in aircraft where temperatures are even higher. How then do aircraft avoid turbine blade distortion?

Aye

Stephen
__________________
Yacht NAUSIKAA | Call Sign: 2AJH2




WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU DID SOMETHING FOR THE FIRST TIME?

www.nausikaa.org.uk

= Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Lithuania
Nausikaa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2007, 11:29 AM   #6
Admiral
 
Nausikaa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,619
Default

KiwiAussie wrote.....

Quote:
In regards to air tabs on a sail boat, they may not make much use given that most boats will either have no pilothouse (or a lowered pilothouse)
Even boats fitted with pilot houses, e.g. Fishers, would probably not benefit much from this as the relative wind speed is far less than a trucks and even the Fishers' relatively large pilot houses are still small when compared with a truck.

On the other hand, has anyone toyed with the idea of fitting air-tabs on the mainsail leach. After all, that is much larger than the pilot house and all sailing boats (almost) have one.

When running free I can not immagine any benefit of air-tabs but when close hauled they may be able to reduce drag. It would be interesting to do some model testing. I am probably way off track here and so would appreciate a word from the wise on this one

Aye

Stephen
__________________
Yacht NAUSIKAA | Call Sign: 2AJH2




WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU DID SOMETHING FOR THE FIRST TIME?

www.nausikaa.org.uk

= Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Lithuania
Nausikaa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2007, 11:44 AM   #7
Lieutenant
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 88
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nausikaa View Post
Hi Daytrader,
See you sailers and us well I do not know what I am. I guess I am a part time fly boy, part time trucker and now part time boater. We are not that differant.

It blows my mind you folks can just sail across thousands of miles of water at 10-30 knots. I bet it is very peacfull. at 300 knots its just water.
__________________
daytrader is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2007, 11:54 AM   #8
Lieutenant
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 88
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nausikaa View Post
KiwiAussie wrote.....

Even boats fitted with pilot houses, e.g. Fishers, would probably not benefit much from this as the relative wind speed is far less than a trucks and even the Fishers' relatively large pilot houses are still small when compared with a truck.

On the other hand, has anyone toyed with the idea of fitting air-tabs on the mainsail leach. After all, that is much larger than the pilot house and all sailing boats (almost) have one.

When running free I can not immagine any benefit of air-tabs but when close hauled they may be able to reduce drag. It would be interesting to do some model testing. I am probably way off track here and so would appreciate a word from the wise on this one

Aye

Stephen
They would have to be much larger on a sail boat as the breaking point for wind would be much more.



The idea is to send the air in a recurring force BACK at you. In the areo field it is about 130 knots. On land it trucks it is about 45 mph.

This is why the ones used on planes are bumps and on trucks they are 2.5 inches wide. The science would say it should work great, BUT you have to provide the air to them.

I am no sailer. I know very little about the sails. I just offer this as an idea.
__________________
daytrader is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2007, 11:56 AM   #9
Admiral
 
Nausikaa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,619
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by daytrader View Post
It blows my mind you folks can just sail across thousands of miles of water at 10-30 knots. I bet it is very peacfull. at 300 knots its just water.
Try 3 - 10 knots....much more realistic

Aye

Stephen
__________________
Yacht NAUSIKAA | Call Sign: 2AJH2




WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU DID SOMETHING FOR THE FIRST TIME?

www.nausikaa.org.uk

= Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Lithuania
Nausikaa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2007, 12:04 PM   #10
Lieutenant
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 88
Default

Anyone want to go for a ride. I will be leaving San Fransico On Monday at 11am Their time. Going to St Louis mo. One stop in Denver for fuel and maint. Back in San Fransico Tuesday Evening.

Just a offer. I mean who dosn't like to fly?
__________________
daytrader is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2007, 08:44 AM   #11
Lieutenant
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 88
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nausikaa View Post
Hi Daytrader,

One quick question to an aero-indstry expert...Aye

Stephen
I am no expert. I have never been one and do not play one on TV.

I learn every day.I try to do the best I can do. I put in the hours you folks on those sail boats do the same thing. You can only get experiance one way. That is by doing it.

There is no school that teaches experiance. I fly. I have the hours behind me with other stuff. I did not wake up one day and have it. I busted by but for it.

You folks in the sail boats did the same thing.

I am no expert.

Any jo blow with the money can buy a plane or a boat. THAT TO ME IS SCARY!
__________________
daytrader is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2007, 07:12 AM   #12
Admiral
 
Nausikaa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,619
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by daytrader View Post
I am no expert.
Hi daytrader,

Everything in this world is relative and even though I have flown many hundreds of hours on patrol duties they have all been in turbo-props so I respectfully bow to your far greater experience in jets ( did you not say you piloted a Lear?). Also, I should point out that my professional flying has been in the capacity of navigator/observer/system operator (remote sensing equipment) and not as a member of the cockpit crew.

I am still curious about the turbine thing???

To another issue, you probably missed my questions/comments re oil filters. I therefore include it again below and will be very grateful for comments

Aye

Stephen

POST RE OIL FILTERS

Quote:
..............Wouldn't that be worth the 700 bucks to have it installed?

..............What is 10 bucks a month for a 25k engine?

..............In the aero field WE HAVE TO replace these simple failer items on a schedual. I do not see why a sailer would not due the same. OR do you sailer do this?

..............Many of you would seem to be fine as you can sail. I guess that is the differance?
Thanks for the interesting posts.

Looking at some of the issues you raised, please allow me to look at them from a "sailing" sailor's point of view.

..............Wouldn't that be worth the 700 bucks to have it installed? ..............What is 10 bucks a month for a 25k engine?

- Well, grouping these two together, that makes an annual cost of $ 285 assuming a 20 year life for the engine. Now, in my case, I change oil every spring. The engine does not run enough during the sailing season even to blacken the oil. I guess my annual oil bill, including filter, is somewhere in the region of $100 so, for me - and I stress that for me bit, it does not make sense. A power-boater could present quite a different set of figures.

..............In the aero field WE HAVE TO replace these simple failer items on a schedual. I do not see why a sailer would not due the same. OR do you sailer do this?

- I do. I am a professional seaman and as such am well aquainted with planned maintenance systems. Not only do they help alleviate failures but they are cost effective - not to mention the peace of mind they give. Unfortunately, some people are opperating on a shoe-string budget and tend to change only that which fails. This is not a good policy nor is it good seamanship.

..............Many of you would seem to be fine as you can sail. I guess that is the differance.

- You are right there. On passage I would not worry too much if my engine decided to go south. As you say, I would just sail - which is what I would have been doing anyway. On the other hand, if I have an engine (I do) in my boat then I want it to work. I would not want to be in the situation of sailing vessels before the introduction of steam where they had to remain in port, perhaps for days or even weeks, waiting for a fair wind in order to put to sea.

In professional maritime circles we have been sending oil samples for analysis for many years. Mobile was (and I think still is) a great company in this respect providing free analysis. There is a huge difference in changing five litres of oil in a small yacht engine and two drums in a larger (but still small) commercial vessel's engine. Larger ships are equipped with purifiers and seperators to maintain lubes in good condition.

As a result of Mobile's very helpfull attitude and the support I always received from them when at sea professionaly and the fact that they have very good quality lubricants, I always use Mobile lubes in NAUSIKAA. I am sure my loyalty to the company will not make it rich but it is the way we humans work. I am also sure that there are many other good companies supplying quality lubes.

Interesting topic though.

Aye

Stephen
__________________
Yacht NAUSIKAA | Call Sign: 2AJH2




WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU DID SOMETHING FOR THE FIRST TIME?

www.nausikaa.org.uk

= Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Lithuania
Nausikaa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2007, 09:06 PM   #13
Admiral
 
Nausikaa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,619
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KiwiAussie View Post
Am not a pilot, but I thought they shut the engines down when a jet plane reaches the gate???
yes, they do. That is exactly what my question was about. They run land, maybe shut down one or two turbines directly, taxi into the gate and then sh&one&t down the rest. No time for gradual cooling even if there is some cooling on the way to the gate.

Aye

Stephen
__________________
Yacht NAUSIKAA | Call Sign: 2AJH2




WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU DID SOMETHING FOR THE FIRST TIME?

www.nausikaa.org.uk

= Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Lithuania
Nausikaa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2007, 09:12 PM   #14
Admiral
 
Nausikaa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,619
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KiwiAussie View Post
Hows about a rigid wing sailing rig with a chord flap??? The following site is all theory (but interesting reading none the less):
Certainly interesting but how would these ideas be implemented in reality? Not very Corinthian but, as you say, very interesting.

Of course, the basic difference between aircraft wing and sail design is that. whilst working on the same principal, the aircraft wing is a fast structure which can be altered by moving other fast structure, i.e. flaps and slots whereas a sail is, in comparisson, a fluid structure despite the use of battons as stiffeners. If we could use flaps to generat more "lift" then we, in theory, should be able to point higher.

I must study this further as an academic exercise.

Aye

Stephen
__________________

__________________
Yacht NAUSIKAA | Call Sign: 2AJH2




WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU DID SOMETHING FOR THE FIRST TIME?

www.nausikaa.org.uk

= Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Lithuania
Nausikaa is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Boat Systems Notes - Simply Explained Lighthouse Repairs & Maintenance 1 01-10-2009 01:46 PM
Davit Systems Trim50 Other Equipment 10 03-17-2008 10:19 PM
Wireless Email Systems manor General Cruising Forum 3 04-09-2007 07:33 AM
air conditioning arkouda General Cruising Forum 10 09-26-2006 04:55 PM

Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

RV & Travel Trailer Communities

Our RV & Travel Trailer sites encompasses virtually all types of Recreational Vehicles, from brand-specific to general RV communities.

» More about our RV Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


All times are GMT. The time now is 10:35 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.0