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Old 04-04-2008, 02:53 AM   #1
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OK, we've not left port yet with our cruising boat--we're still rebuilding it. We're gathering all the "spare" parts though. I'm beginning to wonder how we'll ever really know we've got the right "spare" until its too late.

Example:

I ordered the seal kit for our Hurth HSW800 A M tranny (new model numer is ZF 80 A M). Got an extra output shaft seal, too. Got the shop manual too. Got a couple specialized tools. Hubby decided that since the (new) Hurth had been sitting quite a few years (previous owner hadn't installed the new engine/tranny it in the boat) he'd go ahead and replace the seals himself so he'd know how to do it on an emergency basis. So, in the shop, he takes the tranny off the engine and discovers the bolts aren't as they should be--they're half english, half metric...ok...then, he also notices that the output shaft seal on the tranny is about 1/3 larger than the two we've just purchased...ok...we call ZF...they say "there's only one seal kit, only one design for that transmission." After a bit of coaxing, the service rep on the phone admits that "well, maybe some of the old cases were different..." but when given the dimensions that we have, he can't help us in any way. Argh. "what if" we were in some remote port? Its great that we have tools, spare parts, know-how...but golly-gee...only if they're the RIGHT parts!

We've called the shop we ordered the seal kit via and they've got an old salt who works there who may be able to track down the correct seal but ZF isn't helpful.

OK, I've had this sort of thing happen with car parts, house parts, and now boat parts. How common is this in the marine industry? Its a bit un-nerving to think that we'll stock up on some of the likely needed parts and have them be totally wrong once we need them a few years down the line
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Old 04-04-2008, 03:27 AM   #2
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OK, we've not left port yet with our cruising boat--we're still rebuilding it. We're gathering all the "spare" parts though. I'm beginning to wonder how we'll ever really know we've got the right "spare" until its too late.

We've called the shop we ordered the seal kit via and they've got an old salt who works there who may be able to track down the correct seal but ZF isn't helpful.

How common is this in the marine industry? Its a bit un-nerving to think that we'll stock up on some of the likely needed parts and have them be totally wrong once we need them a few years down the line
Hi,

Very common occurrence - especially when ordering from companies who employ staff who are inexperienced and have little product knowledge across a range. Even simple parts eg; fanbelts, filters etcc... may not fit ! As far as your specific need is concerned - I guess you have talked to MER Mer Link

Many cruisers develop a database of good suppliers and boffins who they can turn to for technical advice and part sourcing - especially nowadays when companies are swallowed up - and the new organisation then downsizes its products and worse still replaces skills with cheap labour !

By the way - I see from another post you refer to "Chart House", is this term commonly used in your neck of the woods ? I have understood it to be a term used for chart rooms on ships.

Regards

Richard
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Old 04-04-2008, 05:09 AM   #3
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Hi,

Very common occurrence - especially when ordering from companies who employ staff who are inexperienced and have little product knowledge across a range. Even simple parts eg; fanbelts, filters etcc... may not fit ! As far as your specific need is concerned - I guess you have talked to MER Mer Link

Many cruisers develop a database of good suppliers and boffins who they can turn to for technical advice and part sourcing - especially nowadays when companies are swallowed up - and the new organisation then downsizes its products and worse still replaces skills with cheap labour !

By the way - I see from another post you refer to "Chart House", is this term commonly used in your neck of the woods ? I have understood it to be a term used for chart rooms on ships.

Regards

Richard
Yes, it is MER with access to the "old salt" too. A fellow by the name of Norm at MER is very helpful, indeed.

Regarding "Chart House," I use it in the same context as you. On our boat, the original drawings show "chart house" not pilot house nor deck saloon. Further, the charts are kept in the chart house! And, navigation is expected to take place there. Our boat is not a modern cruiser. It is a boat built, for cruising, in 1931. So, perhaps it was more common back then to have a "chart house" on one's cruising boat. The chart house had a second steering station inside which the previous owner removed--he said it was rather "rube goldberg" and we also note from the Naval Architect plans of the boat that it didn't originally have the second helm inside. We will likely add one, though, since we are putting in a hydraulic autopilot, we can employ a hydraulic pump and small wheel in the chart house where the old steering station had been set up.

Regards!
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Old 04-04-2008, 08:27 AM   #4
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OK, we've not left port yet with our cruising boat--we're still rebuilding it. We're gathering all the "spare" parts though. I'm beginning to wonder how we'll ever really know we've got the right "spare" until its too late.
You have to be REALLY careful! We were half-way across the Indian Ocean and needed to change the raw-water pump impeller. I opened up the pump to find the impeller (almost new, installed two weeks earlier) in shreds. Cleaned out the pump casing and opened the spare - RIGHT BOX, WRONG PART INSIDE!!

We were becalmed for 10 days and had 1,000 L of diesel in the tanks.

I rigged a hose from the genset outlet to the main engine inlet so that we could run the main for a short period in an emergency (genset would have to be running as well, pushing already hot water), but did not need to. We sat "baking" in stiffling, windless heat for 10 days in the middle of the ocean.

At the time I thought that a customer had returned/exchanged the boxed (incorrect) part at the store.

Lesson learned: Check that the right part is inside the box when purchasing spares.
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Old 04-04-2008, 09:10 AM   #5
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This is also my experience

1 it is often difficult to get spares

2 some delivery companies are totally unreliable

3 when you get the part, it is not the one that will fit

Bright spots:

Perkins

Lewmar

Maxwell

Black spots:

DHL

The yacht industry seems to be about 100 years behind the car industry

Steelfan
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Old 04-06-2008, 02:24 AM   #6
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An old rule for spare parts is install the spare, use the original as the spare. Not always practical but a way to be sure that the part will fit. It also lets you find out if there are any problems, like access, special tool, etc. that may make a spare a false sense of security

Aloha

Peter O.

Quote:
Originally Posted by steelfan View Post
This is also my experience

1 it is often difficult to get spares

2 some delivery companies are totally unreliable

3 when you get the part, it is not the one that will fit

Bright spots:

Perkins

Lewmar

Maxwell

Black spots:

DHL

The yacht industry seems to be about 100 years behind the car industry

Steelfan
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Old 04-06-2008, 03:41 AM   #7
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An old rule for spare parts is install the spare, use the original as the spare. Not always practical but a way to be sure that the part will fit. It also lets you find out if there are any problems, like access, special tool, etc. that may make a spare a false sense of security

Aloha

Peter O.
If someone is deciding to cruise on a boat that one has owned for years and years, then one will have numerous old parts on hand simply because they've been replaced over the years.

Otherwise, it seems that this idea is unrealistic. For example, the seals that I'm talking about...taking out hydraulic seals one usually damages them such that it would be foolhardy to reinstall them under most circumstances. This doesn't mean I wouldn't keep them if they appeared usable--emergencies are emergencies. Further, I can't imagine replacing my perfectly good oil pump simply because I want to have a spare oil pump one on hand. Or thermostat, or...well lots of things that I want a spare of.

Time-wise it would be ludicrous to install all the spares just because one wishes to have spares on hand for key systems.

I wholeheartedly agree that it is a good idea to know that one can access the part IN the boat and a systemic review of the boat and systems can help here. Regarding tools--for most engines/transmissions a list of specialty tools is included in the repair manual and being familiar with the manual including knowing which tools are needed is a good idea. If one is used to doing one's own work, then usually one has a suitable tool or is capable of making a tool our of tools and materials on-hand that will do the job.

I'm still perturbed that a modern transmission from a reputable manufacturer (ZF) would have this sort of mistake taking place. These days, changes in design or parts are well tracked by engine or transmission serial number, the company couldn't sell me the seal kit UNTIL they had the serial number from me, as a matter of fact; so that the output shaft is a completely different shaft than what it should be for this transmission...and no record of it? That's not acceptable to me at all.
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Old 04-06-2008, 08:30 AM   #8
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Hi ,

A couple of questions re extracts from posts concerning the Out shaft seal for ' Hurth HSW800 A M'

transmission :-

"the (new) Hurth had been sitting quite a few years (previous owner hadn't installed the new engine/tranny it in the boat) he'd go ahead and replace the seals himself so he'd know how to do it on an emergency basis. So, in the shop, he takes the tranny off the engine and discovers the bolts aren't as they should be--they're half english, half metric...ok...then, he also notices that the output shaft seal on the tranny is about 1/3 larger than the two we've just purchased...ok...we call ZF.. -----------I'm still perturbed that a modern transmission from a reputable manufacturer (ZF) would have this sort of mistake taking place. These days, changes in design or parts are well tracked by engine or transmission serial number, the company couldn't sell me the seal kit UNTIL they had the serial number from me, as a matter of fact; so that the output shaft is a completely different shaft than what it should be for this transmission...and no record of it? That's not acceptable to me at all. "



#1 did the seal kit contain other seals that fitted the transmission ?

#2a When the output shaft flange was removed ZF_80_A_Trans.jpg

- could the shaft diameter be measured where it left the casing ? 2b Could the seal be seen and it's outside diameter be measured ? If yes to both those questions - do you have the measurements?

The Reason I ask the above is that I have replaced shaft seals with seals that are for big truck engines - at 1/2 the price.
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Old 04-06-2008, 11:59 PM   #9
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Time-wise it would be ludicrous to install all the spares just because one wishes to have spares on hand for key systems.
Hal Roth doesn't find it ludicrous. That's EXACTLY the steps he recommends. Buying a spare part, INSTALLING it, and keeping the existing one as a spare. Of course it won't work for every thing, seals being one good example of that, but it does GUARANTEE the spare will fit when you need it.

Matter of using your head as to which to buy the spare and replace and which to just keep the new part as a spare, but for parts like starters, fuel pumps, water pumps, etc it certainly makes good sense. .
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Old 04-07-2008, 03:23 AM   #10
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#1 did the seal kit contain other seals that fitted the transmission ?

#2a When the output shaft flange was removed Attachment 385

- could the shaft diameter be measured where it left the casing ? 2b Could the seal be seen and it's outside diameter be measured ? If yes to both those questions - do you have the measurements?

The Reason I ask the above is that I have replaced shaft seals with seals that are for big truck engines - at 1/2 the price.
#1, yes --all fitted with exception of output shaft seal and o-ring. Also a gasket (looks like a gromet) at the oil pickup wasn't in the seal kit, had to get it separately as it turned out. Minor glitch there.

#2. after pressing out the seal and o-ring, we measured to order after-market parts. The seal itself has the part number on it and is a part easily found outside the ZF supply loop. Yes, much cheaper.
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Old 04-07-2008, 04:16 AM   #11
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Hal Roth doesn't find it ludicrous. That's EXACTLY the steps he recommends. Buying a spare part, INSTALLING it, and keeping the existing one as a spare. Of course it won't work for every thing, seals being one good example of that, but it does GUARANTEE the spare will fit when you need it.

Matter of using your head as to which to buy the spare and replace and which to just keep the new part as a spare, but for parts like starters, fuel pumps, water pumps, etc it certainly makes good sense. .
Charlie,

Hal's advice is good for "plug-and-play" components like pumps, motors, and starters but not for the parts needed for rebuilding those same things.

Regarding such spares--we're much more likely to purchase brushes, seals, rebuild kits for starters, motors, pumps, etc than I think others might purchase--rebuild kits, seal kits, etc seem to frequently be wrong in the automotive industry and now I'm beginning to think they're just as messed up in the marine industry.

Luckily, I'm perfectly capable of using my head regarding when to install a spare part if I'm worried about using the spare while cruising. Checking the product specs/output/voltage/current/flow rate...etc marked on the product can usually let us know that its the correct replacement, though. Choosing to work with reputable vendors and quality components goes a long way to make sure that things are of consistent quality--including getting the right part. Even if the part isn't the right one--frequently it can be made to work...the same can't be said for sub-components or rebuild kits.

Having conservative ways of protecting yourself (as Hal Roth suggests) doesn't make it "ok" that a reputable manufacturer has no idea that they even produced a transmission with this output shaft! If I didn't have the seal numbers so I could order after-market, we'd be totally up a creek on this.

As you said, seals are a good example of when NOT to install the part. There was nothing "wrong" with our transmission other than age (it'd been sitting in storage, brand new, for several years so one could expect the seals not to last very long). As a matter of fact, caution in making sure we had the right stuff and could do the work is the reason that my husband really wanted to install these seals that I'd purchased (I was expecting to send the tranny to a shop to replace the seals and to keep these as spares on the boat)--hubby isn't thrilled with the idea of working on a transmission either...especially in a remote location cruising when he's never even taken it apart in the shop--so rather than send it out to a transmission shop to replace the seals, he took it apart to replace the (new but aged) seals to make sure that we had enough in the way of a press just using a little portable bottle jack set up we have for getting everything back together properly. Again, I dare say the average cruiser would just send it out for rebuild and this issue wouldn't ever come up as an issue because they wouldn't be replacing all the seals and checking/resetting tolerances throughout their transmission. Instead, they'd just have to deal with a transmission mechanic in a foreign port somewhere.

We'll know in a couple days, when the correct seal shows up, if we've got what we need, on the boat, to rebuild the transmission if that comes up while we're cruising rather than deal with that foreign mechanic someday
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Old 04-07-2008, 04:55 PM   #12
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and that's only one $64,000 question when it comes to cruising. How can I be totally self suffecient while cruising? Every cruiser's delima, what to take, and what not to take. Can I trust the supplier for supplying me with exactly what I need. BEST WISHES in getting everything in order. From reading your posts. You 2 are probably the one of the most capable couples I know of. I have faith you will sort it out................
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Old 04-07-2008, 10:40 PM   #13
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A couple of after-thoughts on : - "discovers the bolts aren't as they should be--they're half english, half metric...ok...then, he also notices that the output shaft seal on the tranny is about 1/3 larger than the two we've just purchased"

#1. Were the bolts threaded - some Metric and some British (whitworth) or were they the same thread but had different Hex heads ? If the bolts have different threads - this could indicate that

some repair or modification was performed on the gearbox.

#2. Because the output shaft did not match the specification diameter for the transmission's shaft - is it possible that the transmission was modified/customised for a none-standard application ? Confirm that it was the seal's diameter not the width of the seal that was about a 1/3rd larger ?

Which brings us to a final question :- do you know the reduction ratio for this transmission ?

If so will it match the propeller's pitch and diameter? How will the engine's output at say 1800 RPM

cope with the existing ratio?

Richard
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Old 04-08-2008, 01:40 AM   #14
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A couple of after-thoughts on : - "discovers the bolts aren't as they should be--they're half english, half metric...ok...then, he also notices that the output shaft seal on the tranny is about 1/3 larger than the two we've just purchased"

#1. Were the bolts threaded - some Metric and some British (whitworth) or were they the same thread but had different Hex heads ? If the bolts have different threads - this could indicate that

#2. Because the output shaft did not match the specification diameter for the transmission's shaft - is it possible that the transmission was modified/customised for a none-standard application ? Confirm that it was the seal's diameter not the width of the seal that was about a 1/3rd larger ?

Which brings us to a final question :- do you know the reduction ratio for this transmission ?

If so will it match the propeller's pitch and diameter? How will the engine's output at say 1800 RPM

cope with the existing ratio?

Richard
Answering your questions--

They were actually different hex heads--haven't double checked the threads, good point though. Also,

its actually the seal's diameter that is significantly larger. The output shaft itself is different.

The transmission (brand new) was purchased via the local Cummins dealer (it was coupled with a Cummins engine) by the boat's previous owner. Never installed. I've got all the paperwork--the previous owner was very detailed in keeping records--and nothing indicates that the tranny was modified. Same story on the Cummins dealer's records. I've been told by a fellow at MER that Cummins used to spec things to be slightly different on Hurth transmissions, therefore that MAY be where the mod is coming into play. Don't understand why Hurth (ZF) wouldn't have record by serial number on this though.

It would be hard to think that the gearbox was modified after it was built since it is a cast case and the size is exactly right for the particular output shaft--no mod there. They would have had to replace half the case? Naw...

Ratios--good question. The ratios are stamped onto the s/n plate but we can begin to question that, huh? I guess I'll be doing a quick set of measurements, pulling part numbers off the gears and making sure the gears and ratios are correct! Thank you so much for bringing up this important point! The new prop hasn't been fabricated yet but we'd just gotten the bids on it so that's something to figure out now rather than later!

Thanks for your comments.
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