Lagoon 38 Or Leopard 40

[gslabbert5119]

Not trying to start a war, but the wife and I are still debating the merits of each of these yachts and will be buying one of the 2 next year for our Circumnavigation.

I am leaning towards the Lagoon and the wife wants the Leopard. Both are essentially the same size, the Leopard is longer and narrower and the Lagoon is shorter and wider . The Lagoon 38 has a shorter mast and less sail area 857 sq ft vs just over 1000 sq feet and the lagoon is lighter than the Leopard. When sailing the Leopard is much faster, but is that really that important for cruising?

Having never sailed a Cat in anger I really have no personal experience to compare the two so, any help suggestions or insights, particularly by folks who own these 2 yachts would be most appreciated.

[MMNETSEA]

Hi Gavin,

The number # 1 question to be asked on both these cats. Is, "what is the bridge deck clearance ?"

With full PAY LOAD ! This factor is so important when considering any offshore sailing.

Another question :- what HP engines ? Where located?

Another thought - when buying new - remember that the buyer is going to have to spend a lot of extra money on electronics, navigation and communication equipment etc etc etc .....

Previously owned (Not Charter) Cats will often have excellent inventories and will have been well maintained.

A little hard to compare the two as the extra 2ft on the Leopard actually makes a big difference in terms of handling, comfort and speed. The Lagoon at 37' something, but wider, is harder to reverse at low speed. The narrower beam of the Leopard will probably negate some of the slamming.

A good read from a few years ago is this :- ARTICLE

Richard

[gslabbert5119]

Thanks for your insights MMNETSEA,

I guess a little more clarification is needed. I am not buying new, I will be buying nearly new though, 2006 or newer and in all likelihood I will not buying out of the charter fleet as we are looking at an Owners version, and very few in the fleet are configured in that manner.

My broker works for 2Hulls in Ft Lauderdale and I have read and re-read that excellent article over and over, and thanks for reminding me of it.

The size debate has been ongoing and has been a point of contention, and if I could afford it I would buy the Lagoon 44 diesel, however, I cannot see doing a multi year cruise without any major revenue source and still having to make a monthly payment. As a result I have only so much cash, which restricts my purchase. Les and I have been looking for close to 2 years now and the Lagoon 380 S2 was our first choice but we thought it was just a tad on the small size. Lagoon had a 410 and now a 42 but again we come to price. I just cannot afford it. Also when cruising what is too big or more importantly what is too small for practical cruising when you are going to spend any number of years in close proximity to each other. I know any number of people are cruising on 35' Charter Cats, but they are to basic a yacht for my wife and I, besides I have personally seen 2 of them, 1 that literally sunk in the harbor in Ft Lauderdale and one at a private berth that I went onto to look at to buy that had nearly a foot of standing water in the port hull.

A yacht that really interested me is the Knysna 44 and I flew to SA earlier this year and went to the factory and met with Kevin (one of the owners). The Knysna 44 has a really nice design and is the old molds from Dean with a new upper deck design. This yacht really great value for money but the company is so small that I just cannot see buying from them, but this is still an option though somewhat slim.

Bridge deck clearance has been one of the key issues and most SA boats have a lower bridge deck clearance than their European counterparts, but all of the Cats that I have either sailed or sailed on Slam when close hauled or reaching. They are even worse when motoring into a headwind, I guess it is just the price you have to pay for the added space.

I will be at the Annapolis boat show in October and will be demo sailing both the Leopard and the Lagoon and will pay close attention to the ease of or difficulty of backing down each Cat.

As far as motors go, both that I am looking at have 29hp Yanmars (The lagoon is an upgrade from 18hp) The Leopard engines are under the Aft bunks whereas the Lagoon motors are housed outside and accessed from the boarding platform. Each have the benefits and drawbacks I am told but I really have never had to work on either under poor conditions. I imagine that it is much easier albeit tighter to work on the motors under the bunks.

Back to the the size, here are the dimensions of each yacht, unfortunately I do not have the bridge deck clearance for either yacht available to me.

Lagoon 380

Overall length 37'11''

Waterline length 36'1'

Beam 21'5"

Leopard 40

Length overall 39' 3"

Waterline length 37' 6"

Beam 20' 1"

[imagine2frolic]

WELCOME,

If you haven't considered custom boats. Then possibly you should. A surveyor can let you know if it is a good choice, or not. I read Chris White's book, and it helped me make a wonderful choice on a custom cold molded boat built in Germany.

MMNETSEA has given good advice on a previously owned, and especially a cruised boat. All the goodies will be there already........BEST WISHES in finding a boat that will serve you well,a nd bring pride......i2f

[gslabbert5119]

Never given custom boats much thought, in fact I have given custom boats no thought whatsoever.

Great idea thank you

[MMNETSEA]

Gavin,

The Knysna 44 ( a revamped St Francis) nice boat, but back to the real issue on a cruising cat - the bridge deck clearance ! The Knysa has a probably less than 2ft.

I would sacrifice Saloon head room space any time for clearance under the Saloon.

A key to sailing close to nose on a catamaran is having dagger boards that are easily lowered and lifted (And easily removed for cleaning and antifouled)

As far as engines are concerned - many of the Vanmars are turbocharged - which means for the turbos to kick in - RPM will need to be above 2,000.

A good cat is the Grainger mystic - but Australian.

Gavin, the Leopard has better potential - IF I was buying one - I would take it to a yard and add another 2/3 ft to the transom and dagger boards. The Lagoon by reports is very hard to get it moving - but lots of mono-hulls are also like that.

Richard

A biased Multi Huller

[edsailing]

Having sailed a Lagoon 380 transatlantic westbound (delivery to Fort Lauderdale from the factory) - I would be very cautious about getting one of these as an ocean going boat. Although it has an CE Ocean rating I would not rate it as a serious Ocean going boat. I know of other who have structural problems start to develop after the boat has had some hard weather.........

You pays your money and takes your choice!

Ed

[gslabbert5119]

Thank you for that, this is why I subscribed to this site. Great insight

Originally Posted by edsailing

Ed

[gslabbert5119]

Thanks Richard, I will look into the turbo charged Yanmars and I must say I had never thought about getting a Leopard and taking it to a yard and lengthening it 3 feet and adding daggerboards. not a bad idea, I will look into this. Do you know of any Leopards that have had this sort of work done to it?

I will also look into the Grainger mystic. Never gave them a thought and have not seen one here in the USA, but then I have not really looked for them.

Great insight Richard and thanks a ton

Originally Posted by MMNETSEA

A biased Multi Huller

[MMNETSEA]

Hi Gavin,

Here is a picture of the Grainger 42 (Not sure if this is the same as the Mystic Cove - also a 42')



Here is a picture of the Transom Mod :-



Here is a picture of the Cat before it was modified :-

[MMNETSEA]

[QUOTE=MMNETSEA;24956]Here is a picture of the Cat before it was modified :-

Attachment 604

PS

Gavin,

I forgot to name the make of the above Modified Catamaran : Its a Parlay 38 - now a 40.

designed by Alex Simonis - the designer of the Leopards. I understand (but cannot confirm) that this boat's bridge deck clearance is 4' 10½" - which think is not correct, I will ask the owner.

Richard

[MMNETSEA]

OK, owner returns with cap in hand ! 813 mm (which in my measurement = 32" or 2' 8") not bad .

Another 7" would be good.

Richard

[gslabbert5119]

Nice looking yacht, pity I cannot afford it. Will contact Grangier though to get an idea how far out of my price range they are.

Yep, the Leopard 40 is designed by Simonis but not the older models. The 40 is more Americanized and targeted for the charter maerket

Gavin

Originally Posted by MMNETSEA

OK, owner returns with cap in hand ! 813 mm (which in my measurement = 32" or 2' 8") not bad .

Another 7" would be good.

Richard

[MMNETSEA]

Hi Gavin ,

Other Alex Simonis :- LEOPARDS

Richard

[gslabbert5119]

Richard the only 2 Sailing Cats that are currently in production by Leopard are the 40 which is a Simonis design and the Leopard 46 which is a Morrelli and Melvin design. The 45 that you sent me to has out of production for a few years now (I believe 3 years, but stand corrected).

Originally Posted by MMNETSEA

Hi Gavin ,

Other Alex Simonis :- LEOPARDS

Richard

[gslabbert5119]

Hey Richard, did they just lengthen hull by the sugar scoops 2 feet or was other structural work done. It hard to tell from the photos but each of the steps were lengthened.

Any other photos of the work and who did it?

Thanks again

Gavin

Originally Posted by MMNETSEA

Hi Gavin,

[MMNETSEA]

Hi Gavin ,

The info on Simonis and Leopards from Designers/Brands/Yards/Boats in this link :-MULTI MAVEN

I think, have one other photo, will see if it can be found (taken some time ago by the owner) I don't know any more than that the existing transoms were cut off and rebuilt to extend them.

Don the owner himself is now starting on lengthening the bows by a 2/3 ft.

By the way Don is a Banana boy.

Richard

[gslabbert5119]

Hey Richard, do you have an email for Don or is he on this board. I would like to ask him why he lengthened his transom and why he is lengthening the bow. Basically advantages versus disadvantages and the impact on long term cruising.

Having grown up on wooden monos, I am really new to the world of Catamarans and am on a quest to gain as much knowledge about the subject as possible.

The bigger question is do I take advice from a banana boy .... .... ROTFLMAO

Gavin

Originally Posted by MMNETSEA

Hi Gavin ,

The info on Simonis and Leopards from Designers/Brands/Yards/Boats in this link :-MULTI MAVEN

I think, have one other photo, will see if it can be found (taken some time ago by the owner) I don't know any more than that the existing transoms were cut off and rebuilt to extend them.

Don the owner himself is now starting on lengthening the bows by a 2/3 ft.

By the way Don is a Banana boy.

Richard

[MMNETSEA]

Will send by PM

[JVentura]

Hi

Like Edsailor I also sailed a Lagoon380 from Les Sables D'Ollone to Fort Lauderdale and I would not say that she's not an ocean going boat.I also sailed a Leopard 40 from Cape Town to Tortola.All the leopards The Moorings buys ( and that's in the hundreds) make it in they'r own bottom to all points of the globe, so you can be assured that they are ocean going vessels, just like the Lagoons.No boat is perfect...You mention some measurement diferences between the boats but don't mention the price difference .I assume you are considering used boats since the 380 is no longer in production.If I was offered both yachts ,same year of construction , level of equipment and general condition for the same price , I would choose the Lagoon 380. As to the Leopard being faster, that depends on several diferent things , don't be too impressed by graph curves or "real observed speeds". I would say that a race between these two boats would pretty much be decided by the crew's skill.

It's a good time to buy a boat , have fun

JV