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07-18-2007, 09:54 PM
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#1
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Admiral
Join Date: Feb 2006
Home Port: Who cares really...
Vessel Name: T
Posts: 1,215
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I presently have Boat US Insurance coverage, however I feel completely under insured. Boat US will not insure to full surveyed value because the boat is more than 20 years old.
Has anyone else experienced this problem?
Can someone recommend a better insurance company?
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07-19-2007, 02:59 PM
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#2
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Ensign
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 6
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SONNY
s/y NIRVANA, SO49
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07-19-2007, 03:41 PM
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#3
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Commander
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 143
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We use International Marine Ins. Services, imiscorp.net, 410-827-3757, Al Golden.
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07-19-2007, 05:20 PM
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#4
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Ensign
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 24
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Believe it or not but we use Allstate. That's right the car insurance company. When my Pearson 40 broke lose from its mooring in a Nor'easter, they covered ALL the damage to my boat as well as the two boats mine hit as it cruised around the anchorage. The boat was 21 years old at the time and the crash into the last boat dislodged the anchor which set into his deck and just saved mine from the rocks. All new parts including rubrail and stanchions. The cost was over half the purchase price of the boat 2 years earlier.
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07-19-2007, 05:45 PM
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#5
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Commander
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 143
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A number of the regular insurance companies will insure a boat, but not a boat that is crossing an ocean. That's why we went with IMIS. There are others, I know.
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07-20-2007, 02:29 AM
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#6
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Lieutenant
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 80
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I noticed Allstate will only cover boat within 100 miles of US or Canada.
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07-20-2007, 07:08 AM
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#7
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Retired Mod
Join Date: Mar 2007
Home Port: Durban
Posts: 2,984
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JeanneP uses a good one based in Europe - she will login in a day or two.
: Most sections
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07-20-2007, 03:55 PM
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#8
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Admiral
Join Date: Feb 2006
Home Port: Who cares really...
Vessel Name: T
Posts: 1,215
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I already got a quote from IMIS and the rates are reasonable for cruising, however they are a bit high for someone that will be in California waters for another year.
My concern all started a few months ago. Good friends and neighbors on our dock (power boaters) just lost their boat to an electrical fire. They were under insured and are having a hell of a time getting back into a comparable boat. They lived on their boat and are somewhat in desperate ways. The funny thing is, his business is fire protection and he sold me all my automatic fire protection equipment and extinguishers.
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07-22-2007, 06:24 AM
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#9
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Lieutenant
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 88
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www.lloyds.com
Lloyds will write any boat. You also get what you pay for. When you pay for Lloyds you get the best.
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07-25-2007, 07:11 PM
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#10
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Admiral
Join Date: Feb 2006
Home Port: Who cares really...
Vessel Name: T
Posts: 1,215
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Yep...my neighbor has Lloyds and yes it is more expensive. But if something were to happen, you can rely on them to pay you.
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07-26-2007, 01:59 AM
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#11
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Commander
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 143
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Not always. A friend of mine (whose book I wrote) lived in London and had his business insured by Lloyds. When extremists bombed it, killing his son, the insurers claimed the disaster was his fault because he must have made the bad guys mad. They refused payment. (Two gov'ts got involved in protecting him, including the British, assuming him a victim--Lloyds knew better.) All insurance companies enjoy loopholes. Even Lloyds.
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07-26-2007, 02:43 AM
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#12
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Admiral
Join Date: Feb 2006
Home Port: Who cares really...
Vessel Name: T
Posts: 1,215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeaVenture
Not always. A friend of mine (whose book I wrote) lived in London and had his business insured by Lloyds. When extremists bombed it, killing his son, the insurers claimed the disaster was his fault because he must have made the bad guys mad. They refused payment. (Two gov'ts got involved in protecting him, including the British, assuming him a victim--Lloyds knew better.) All insurance companies enjoy loopholes. Even Lloyds.
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Sounds like an interesting story...can you share more?
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07-26-2007, 02:48 AM
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#13
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Admiral
Join Date: Jan 2005
Home Port: Darwin
Vessel Name: Sandettie
Posts: 1,917
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Surely Lloyds insurance arm is an insurance brokerage collective, not an insurance company. From an insurance viewpoint, it is in my understanding that Lloyds is merely a place where insurance companies can be represented under a specific industry banner in much the same way as doctors can be represented under the umbrella of the Medical Association and then specialise within a specific agency.
Being a 'name' within Lloyds, I think, suggests nothing more than an industry minimum ethical expectation.
But then again, I may be wrong.
David.
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" if at first you don't succeed....Redefine success"!
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07-26-2007, 03:45 AM
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#14
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Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2007
Home Port: Washington DC
Vessel Name: SV Mahdee
Posts: 3,236
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Insuring at less than "full value" can happen in 2 ways--one I'd worry about, the other, not. We also have Boat US coverage on our 41 year old Rawson 30. But, that boat's worth next-to-nothing so it doesn't matter. On the larger boat, we're not eligible for a regular policy til she's ready for launch, right now she's only eligible for the construction policies. Having said all that....
If you're under-insured because the insurer is only willing to give you "actual cash value" on damage, then that's a worry. Especially if you're paying for a regular policy but will only get cash value because of the age of the components, etc. Actual cash value policies are supposed to be cheaper than regular policies. If you're worried about being under-insured because the insurer won't insure you for the full market value of the boat (i.e. they'll write a 100K policy but you can see on Yacht World that boats similar to yours are selling for 170K on average) that isn't such a huge problem--losses tend not to be the whole boat, it tends to be repair/replace part of the boat's value and if at real replacement instead of some kind of depreciated cash value, then its probably ok. Further, you're not paying for something you're never going to get!
I know I'm a little worried about the value the surveyor is going to put on our boat when we're done because its going to be more money than I'm willing to insure the boat for. I don't like paying for insurance that I think I'm not going to need. We're not counting our "sweat equity" so our cost of rebuilding the boat is quite a bit less than it would be if we have to hire someone to do everything.
Of course, I kinda wonder about the "actual cash value" policies and boats as that are anything over 40 years old or so--I have more than fifty large Merriman blocks in good working condition that I've seen fetch more at swap meets than brand new reproduction Merriman-style wood blocks. Same goes for much of the bronze on the boat. On something "new" actual cash value can be dismal because I'll assume the insurer is looking at depreciation down to something you'd buy at the marine swap meet. On something "old" like the blocks and winches we're rebuilding, actual cash value can be high (same marine swap meet)--if we're talking apples to apples and things that work well and aren't worn out, that is.
Other related thought...
I haven't investigated the matter fully, but it is possible to get a new build-date (and new CG Doc #) on a boat that has been extensively rebuilt. We're not planning on doing it because our cruising boat has been continuously CG documented since it was launched in 1931, but some folks do it for insurance reasons. Clearly, a 2007 build date sounds a lot better to the average insurer! Our surveyor states there's no hard-and-fast rule on it, but he figures about 25% of the structure must be repaired/replaced (on a wood boat like ours that would be planking, deck, frames, floors, keelbolts, etc.) which we've exceeded. I also don't really know what it takes to get the new CG Doc #. One would assume that all the system and hull safety standards that may be required are the same as those we strive to meet anyway! You may investigate this if you feel you've rebuilt your boat sufficiently to qualify for a new build date.
About Lloyds--they must be ok, I know several folks who have cruised with Lloyds insurance. However, the people I know best who have Lloyds always have to take on extra crew to be insured while crossing oceans. They never have a problem finding volunteers since they have a great boat and everyone wants to sail it! They are a couple who can handle their 50' schooner just fine--he's owned and sailed the boat for a few decades. But, their insurance will only cover if they've got 4 people on board for passage making. I do believe that makes sense, but you might not like finding yourself constrained to having to have crew for bluewater coverage. I know another owner of a 48' boat with similar requirement. He did the Transpac a couple years ago--his racing crew flew home and he then had to get additional crew for the trip back to the CONUS.
How big is your boat? Will this likely be an issue for you?
Good luck in finding an insurer that you like. You may check out the brokerage http://www.overseainsurance.com they represent many different carriers.
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07-26-2007, 05:38 AM
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#15
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Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2007
Home Port: Washington DC
Vessel Name: SV Mahdee
Posts: 3,236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KiwiAussie
So I would assume correctly that solo sailer's on "blue water" would have difficulty getting any insurance (even with a surveyed vessel & RYA tickets)???
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Perhaps it depends on the boat size and expected ease of sailing. The folks I'm thinking of have schooners and ketches in the close to 50' range. It shouldn't depend on the boat though, exhaustion is exhaustion, you know?
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07-26-2007, 06:45 AM
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#16
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Admiral
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,619
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Although I am not 100% sure, I think there may be some confusion here as Lloyds as we know of it in the maritime field is, as David pointed out, a collective of underwriters. However, there is also at least one insurance company called Lloyds which may, or may not, have connections to Lloyds of London (the collective).
I have always found insurance confusing and sometimes wonder if the best solution is to go for third party and theft only. I base this thought upon the fact that I have spent much time and money making NAUSIKAA as seaworthy as possible, I am cautious, experienced and well educated in the maritime field; none of which gives any substantial reduction in premium. I therefore see little reason to subvention poorer risks through my premiums.
I also have an issue with insurance companies who will not insure older boats. I do not understand the logic in this as a well cared for older boat, propperly fitted out and maintained is a good risk.
Aye
Stephen
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07-26-2007, 03:03 PM
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#17
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Commander
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trim50
Sounds like an interesting story...can you share more?
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As the story is actually quite fascinating but much too long to tell here, I'll point you to his book: Survivor by Reza Fazelli and N.K. Hamilton. My pseudonym may be on the cover, but I don't benefit from the sales, so this plug is merely so you can enjoy a good (written as faction--narrative memoir) tale of rather remarkable escapes. See amazon.com
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07-26-2007, 03:55 PM
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#18
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Admiral
Join Date: Feb 2006
Home Port: Who cares really...
Vessel Name: T
Posts: 1,215
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Here is what I have been told by Boat US. Basically, my first policy with them on a refit boat prevented them from giving full surveyed value. I was told that since I have been a good risk now for 5 years, that if I get a new survey I can most likely get full value now.
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07-29-2007, 08:19 PM
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#19
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Admiral
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,098
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SV Watermelon is a 1981 Jeanneau Sun Fizz. Once the boat was over 10 years old, we had to have her surveyed every XX years (I can't remember if it was 3 or 5), to warrant her seaworthy and valued at what we wanted to insure her for. Insurance was about 2.5% of insured value.
MV Watermelon, which is 4 years old, is insured through IMIS.com. Their Jackline policy. MV Watermelon is not a blue water boat, but we are covered for our Baltic trip as well as US, Bahamas, and Turks and Caicos (I've not asked for other coverage since we don't need it, so I can't say whether we could get coverage. I assume we can, but it's only an assumption). The premium is less than 1% of insured value.
IMIS Corp. has been very easy to deal with, though we haven't had a claim. When we were forced to put the boat on the hard in New Jersey for the winter after Peter's bypass surgery, IMIS took the initiative to send the boatyard proof of our insurance (I was not thinking very straight those weeks so I'm grateful that they did my thinking for me), and I believe that we received a rate reduction because it was out of the water (though again, don't hold me to that fact).
I agree that older boats should be as insurable as newer boats, but remember that insurance companies have a lot of experience in all the ways that unreliable people do not care for their possessions. I've seen some really sad old boats.
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07-31-2007, 04:30 PM
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#20
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Ensign
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 2
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Heritage Marine Insurance specializes in insuring old / classic boats. Check them out at heritagemarineinsurance.com . They are the agents for my schooner.
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